Archbishop Lefebvre: 1986 Interview - 'Paul VI and JPII are both Liberal Modernists'
Interview with Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
January 1986

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His Grace granted this interview to Don McLean, Editor of Catholic, an Australian publication. There is much in it to give us encouragement. Archbishop Lefebvre faces difficult decisions in the near future, some alluded to here. and in this difficult time he must be supported by our prayers. Our thanks to Mr. McLean for permission to reprint this interview for our readers.

Q. Can you tell us something of your visit to Colombia so soon after the tragic earthquake?

A. We learned of the disaster while we were in the West Indies. Everybody in Colombia was very shocked to learn of a town of 20,000 people disappearing. There was great disquiet that the volcano might erupt again. As far as the Church is concerned, it seems that not only in Colombia, but also in the entire continent of South America, the Catholic tradition will have a greater future among ordinary people rather than among an intellectual elite who understand the principle behind the present reform in the Church. The people and their spiritual needs are more and more being abandoned by their priests, and the people are turning to priests who will provide them with the Sacraments and the devotions such as they have always known and require.

Q. You have just conferred the Sacrament of Holy Orders at the Society’s seminary at La Reja, Argentina for the first time. Eight more priests for the Society, and Bishop de Castro Mayer was present?

A. The presence of Bishop de Castro Mayer was a very great event for the Society. This was the first time that I assisted at Ordinations in one of our seminaries conferred by another bishop. It was a great joy for all and a great satisfaction for Bishop de Castro Mayer.

Q. Does he still ordain priests for the Diocese of Campos and other places?

A. His Lordship, Bishop de Castro Mayer conferred the Tonsure and the Minor Orders on a certain number of seminarians at the Seminary at La Reja. This day, December 1, 1985, was a memorable one at the seminary.

I do not know if he will ordain other seminarians at other places.

Q. There are only two bishops who speak out against Modernism. Are there others who support you?

A. Many other bishops among those nominated before Vatican II are with us in their heart, but they do not dare to express this publicly.

Q. The seminary has just finished an extensive building program. What was your impression of it compared to the other three seminaries of the Society?

A. The seminary at La Reja has the great advantage of being constructed according to a total plan. There were no existing buildings, and therefore we were able to construct the seminary exactly as we liked. 1t is very favorable for the formation of the seminarians and for the development of their piety and recollection.

Q. We have heard that you have ordained more priests this year than any other bishop. Is that so?

A. I ordained thirty-nine priests last year. This is the greatest number which has ever been ordained by me in a given year. Henceforth the average number will be about forty every year. I do not know if I will ordain more priests this year than any other bishop.

Q. You ordain priests for other communities?

A. Yes, for communities which, in normal times, would be recognized by the Dioceses and the Holy See.

Q. You had a chance to confer with Bishop de Castro Mayer at the seminary?

A. Certainly. We spent several days together, and so we were able to speak about the state of the Church today. We were able to speak of the various problems which have developed, and will develop after the Synod.

Q. Did you speak of the Episcopal Manifesto sent to Rome after your last visit to South America in November 1983?

A. We spoke of the recent letter which we sent to the Pope rather than the Manifesto of 1983. This letter is a grave warning to the Pope, and a further appeal to him to return to Tradition, and to cease spreading the errors of the Second Vatican Council.

Q. Has there been any reaction to that letter, or the Manifesto?

A. Not yet.

Q. Last May, in Canada, you spoke of "pertinacity in error." Could you expand upon what you mean?

A. It is because of' this pertinacity that we sent our recent letter to the Pope. If he continues to promote the reforms in the Church, which are becoming more and more grave, then he can certainly be described as pertinacious. Soon, perhaps, Bishop de Castro Mayer and I will produce another document which will outline the gravity of the situation.

Q. You had difficulties with Pope Paul VI. Do you have the same difficulties with Pope John Paul II?

A. Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II are both Liberal and Modernists, favorable to the Conciliar Revolution. We have the same reasons to mistrust John Paul II as Paul VI. In practice they have adopted all the consequences of a false principle which may be expressed thus: "All religions are means of salvation." Therefore the Church is no longer the unique means of salvation. This is to establish the Revolution in the Church and by the Church. We refuse this change and this Revolution.

Q. You said in an interview in Paris in December 1983 that Pope John Paul II was a Pope who was not doing his duty, with particular reference to his not condemning Communism. Do you still hold that position?

A. In consequence of a fundamental change of principle, it is logical that Pope John Paul II does not publicly condemn Communism, which is a form of atheistic conviction.

Q. In the same interview in 1983, you did not rule out the possibility of consecrating a bishop. But you said that "it would be in circumstances more tragic than today." Would you comment?

A. Today I remain in the same position, but the circumstances have become more serious during the last six months.

Q. Cardinal Ratzinger recently said: "I see no future for a position that, out of principle, stubbornly renounces Vatican II." Do you have a comment on that?

A. I could equally ask Cardinal Ratzinger if he sees a future in the present progressive policies in the Church. Not only is there no future in them, but according to his book The Ratzinger Report, there would seem to be total ruin. That is not the case with our Society of St. Plus X.

Q. On page 21 of his book (English edition). Cardinal Ratzinger says: "Clearly everything possible must be done to prevent Archbishop Lefebvre’s movement from giving rise to a schism peculiar to it that would come into whenever Msgr. Lefebvre should decide to consecrate a bishop which, thank God, in the hope of reconciliation, he has not yet done." Could you comment on this statement?

A. These are in fact the words of Cardinal Ratzinger.In our last letter we warned the Pope that we would perhaps consecrate a bishop if the diffusion of error continues as before, and the reform continues in the same manner.

Q. Rome these days, seems to be over-run with Modernists. Do you have any real friends there?

A. They who might be our friends, and who recognize the damage which Modernism is causing to the Church, have not had the courage to uphold it, and so it is possible to say that Rome is almost completely occupied by the Modernists. All that is done there is done according to modernistic principles.

Q. Professor van der Ploeg, in an article in the Dutch magazine, Katholiecke Stemmen for October 1985, speaking of Fr. Hans Küng, decries the fact that: "Küng has not been suspended from his priestly functions as was, for example, Archbishop Lefebvre who adheres to the Faith that the Church has always confessed." Would you comment on that?

A. The case of Hans Küng is only a particular incident. Entire Episcopal Conferences should be suspended if they do not retract their writings. For example, a recent document issued by the German Episcopal Conference no longer makes a clear distinction between Catholics and Protestants in mixed marriages.

Q. Would you comment on the Church in France today?

A. The great majority of the bishops in France are apostate, and have abandoned the Catholic Faith to become Modernist. Their new catechism is evident proof of this.

Yet, there is in France, an extraordinary resistance on the part of many priests, the faithful, and very many young Catholics. This is a great hope. The Catholic Church survives and is organizing itself against the persecution of the Conciliar Revolution.

Q. There are now five members of the Sisters of St. Pius X from Australia, including Sister Mary Michael who joined soon after your first visit to Australia in 1972. Can you tell us when a foundation of the Sisters might be established here?

A. This decision depends upon the Mother General of the Sisters, but I feel sure that it is her intention to found a community here quite soon.

Q. What do you say to people who claim that the Society of St. Pius X will die out?

A. God is the Master of all things, and He could make it come about that our Society should disappear. However, as the Church cannot disappear, then we are an important element in the continuity of the Church. I think that Providence will continue to support us, as It has done up to the present.

Q. Last April, Your Grace, the Archbishop of Melbourne, Sir Francis Little, welcomed Dr. Robert Runcie, head of the Anglican Church in England, as a brother bishop into St. Patrick’s Cathedral here in Melbourne. Could you explain to our readers why this was wrong?

A. All of these ceremonies, whether performed by the Pope or other bishops,result in religious indifferentism. In other words, they give the impression that all religions are good, that there is no distinction between the Catholic Church and other religions. The essential distinction between true and false religion is therefore lost, with the result that heresy is spread throughout the world. This heresy being that the Catholic Church is no longer the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Q. Pope John Paul II recently created twenty-eight new cardinals. There were from Australians among them. We maintain that there were none worthy. Could you comment?

A. Given that many new cardinals are unworthy of their designation, any from Australia would only have added to that. In effect, the choice of cardinals is now made by reason of their total adhesion to the Conciliar Revolution, apart from a few rare exceptions.

Q. Do you have a message for Australia’s bishops?

A. Bishops, what have you done with your diocese, with your seminary, and your convents, with your schools, and with your Faith? The ruins are before you, and you persist in continuing the destruction of our holy religion. Reflect that you will soon have to render an account of your charge. "Redde rationem villicationis tuae," says Our Lord. Come back to the Church of before the Council, and all will flourish again.

Your Grace, thank you most sincerely. May the remainder of your visit be rewarding, and may our Immaculate Mother ensure your safe return to Switzerland.


[Emphasis - The Catacombs]
"So let us be confident, let us not be unprepared, let us not be outflanked, let us be wise, vigilant, fighting against those who are trying to tear the faith out of our souls and morality out of our hearts, so that we may remain Catholics, remain united to the Blessed Virgin Mary, remain united to the Roman Catholic Church, remain faithful children of the Church."- Abp. Lefebvre
A reminder ....

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