Methodists, Catholics celebrate 55 years of 'ecumenical dialogue'

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Methodists, Catholics celebrate 55 years of ecumenical dialogue



Pope Francis accepts a report from Fr. Edgardo A. Colón-Emeric, the new Methodist co-chair of the Joint International Commission for Dialogue 

between the World Methodist Council and the Catholic Church, during an audience with members of the commission at the Vatican Oct. 5.

 Colón-Emeric is dean of Duke University Divinity School in Durham, N.C., and (CNS photo/Vatican Media)

NCR | November 14, 2022


When Pope Francis celebrated the 60th anniversary of the opening of Vatican II on Oct. 11, he paid tribute to the ways the council led to an opening of the Catholic Church's relationships with other Christian churches.

But only one of those groups has been in official continuous dialogue with the Holy See since the council: the Methodists.

At the end of the Second Vatican Council, Pope Paul VI invited a number of churches to formal theological dialogue. In 1966, the worldwide communion of Methodist and Wesleyan churches were invited and they held their first formal meeting a year later.

"We received the invitation with great enthusiasm," the Rev. Matthew Laferty, director of the Methodist Ecumenical Office in Rome, told NCR, recalling the response of the Methodists at the time. "And we've never taken a break in our work."

Just before the 60th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council, from Oct. 2-8, members of the Methodist-Roman Catholic International Commission, which is the official theological dialogue body between the World Methodist Council and the Holy See, met in Rome to begin a new cycle of dialogue under the theme "unity and mission."

According to Laferty, co-secretary of the commission, the dialogues take place in five-year cycles under different themes and provide an occasion for a theological exploration of certain issues, and social and moral concerns "within the broader context of how our two churches might respond to those issues."

During this year's Rome gathering, the commission spent time hearing papers and discussing a range of topics, including synodality and each other's understanding of the hierarchy of truths.

Bishop Shane Mackinlay of Sandhurst, Australia, co-chair of the commission, told NCR that while much ecumenical work, such as the recent meeting between Methodists and Catholics, may go unnoticed, it is essential for the shared goal of unity.

"Jesus established one church. And anything that we do that diminishes that unity takes us further away from that mission," said Mackinlay.

Pope Francis leads an audience with members of the Joint International Commission for Dialogue between the World Methodist Council and the Catholic Church at the Vatican Oct. 5. (CNS photo/Vatican Media)

On Oct. 5, Pope Francis received the members of the commission — who hail from Argentina, Australia, Canada, Malaysia, Nigeria, Philippines, South Africa, the United Kingdom and the United States — in a private audience, where they presented him with a copy of the report from their recently completed 11th round of dialogue.

The report, "God in Christ Reconciling: On the Way to Full Communion in Faith, Sacraments and Mission," discusses the ways the two churches understand the work of reconciliation.

Mackinlay said that when Francis was presented a copy of the report, which uses the parable of the prodigal son, the pope noted that the father in the story has two sons and both Catholics and Methodists alike need to repent for their divisions in order to return to the father.

"Ecumenism is not about one party returning because they've wandered off, while the other stayed home," Macklinay said. "It's about all the parties recognizing the ways in which each of us have moved away from the father's house and need to recover."

Fr. Anthony Currer, the commission's outgoing Catholic co-secretary, told NCR that the report is the first ecumenical dialogue in the Catholic Church's relationships with other Western churches that examines the question of sacramental reconciliation.

"We might think we were a long way apart but under closer examination some of that distance collapses and we find real convergence," he said.

"Catholics can recognize that Methodists do celebrate liturgically the forgiveness Jesus made present among us, some in forms close to Catholic sacramental reconciliation, but all in forms that are based on what we know as the penitential rite at the beginning of Mass," Currer said.

Mackinlay noted that the new report is not just inward looking, but also has a missional element focusing on the needed role of reconciliation in the world today.

It also includes a liturgical text for Methodists and Catholics to join together in a service for "renewing our commitment to reconciliation as churches."

During the commission's week in Rome, members also met with officials from the Vatican's synod office, the department responsible for overseeing Pope Francis' ongoing consultation process with the world's Catholics.

Both Laferty and Mackinlay noted that synodality has a role to play in the work of ecumenism through listening to and integrating the perspectives of other Christian communions, as well as hopefully healing divides between churches.

"It is clear that Catholics need to continue to walk with and explore these questions learning from our ecumenical partners," said Currer, referring to what he called a "receptive ecumenism."

"We recognize that these Christian communities are used by God and have therefore been blessed and gifted by the Spirit," he added. "What the Spirit has given to them needs to be received by us for our own ecclesial healing."

Macklinay said that after 55 years of nonstop dialogue, the two communions are committed to the ongoing work of shared prayer, thoughtful listening and engagement  to continually ask "What can we learn from one another to bring us closer to being the church that Jesus wants us to be?"

* * *

Again, this is not Francis per se, it's the regurgitation of Vatican II.

Excerpts from Fr. Hesse's Ten Errors of Vatican II:

Ten Errors of Vatican II

[Taken from The Recusant: based on notes from a talk given by the late Fr. Gregory Hesse, STD, JCD]

Lumen Gentium 8 
“This Church [the Church of Christ] constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.”

Fr. Hesse: The word subsists doesn’t tell us much in English, but in Latin “subsistere” means to exist, to be present, to lie underneath. You could say for example that the grass is subsistent to my way of walking. But it could also be subsistent to someone else’s way of walking and not just to mine. So when you say that the Catholic Church “subsists” in the Catholic Church, it is phrased that way deliberately so as not to exclude Protestants, Orthodox, etc. The architects of Vatican II were too clever to say that the Church of Christ “contains” the Protestants, the Orthodox and all those other non-Catholics. So they said that it can be found in the Catholic Church in a way that does not exclude the others. But it is defined dogma that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, the two are identical. Nothing outside the Catholic Church is part of the Church of Christ and nothing of the Church of Christ is outside the Catholic Church. The two are identical.


Lumen Gentium 15
“Likewise we can say that in some real way they [non-Catholic/Protestant sects] are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”

Fr. Hesse: What way is this “real way”? They never say. In the Gospel of St. John one can read that the Holy Ghost was given only to the Catholic Church, not to Protestants, not to the Lutheran Church, not to the Anglicans. When a Lutheran pastor baptises a baby, if it is valid, it is a sacrament stolen from the Catholic Church. If that innocent child, after being baptised, dies and goes to heaven, it goes to heaven as a member of the Catholic Church because the Lutheran pastor illicitly administered the Catholic sacrament of baptism.


Lumen Gentium 16 
“But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, together with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Fr. Hesse: What about the Incarnation? What about the Holy Trinity? The Koran, the Muslims’ holy book calls the idea of the Trinity an “excremental idea.” And now Vatican II tells us that they, together with us, adore the one merciful God?!? What about the First Commandment? They have another God, they have the lonely one-person Allah. We have Father, Son and Holy Ghost. “Et Verbum caro factum est,” says the last Gospel at Mass, “And the Word became flesh” I’ve never heard that Allah became flesh. This is blasphemy. It is heresy and it is blasphemy.

The idea that Muslims, Jews and Catholics are basically all the same anyway is a Freemasonic idea. It was being promoted by the Freemasons long before Vatican II, and now we have a so-called Ecumenical Council telling us the same thing too. Give me a Catholic interpretation of that quote about the Muslims together with us adoring the same God. It’s not possible. It’s just a heresy.


Unitatis Redintigratio 3 
“The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."

Fr. Hesse: It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”

The Protestant “churches,” and the Orthodox “churches,” cannot save anyone, they are not, never have been and never will be a means of salvation to anyone. They can only lead you to hell. Subjectively speaking, you might ask whether a Protestant who has lived a just life all his life, who has tried his best to find the truth, who has tried his best to avoid sin, whether perhaps for whatever reason he was not able to find out about the Catholic Church... or a Russian Orthodox living under communism all his life, who maybe never heard about the Catholic Church... whether because of that God would not send him to hell. Well, subjectively speaking perhaps, but even so objectively speaking they are living in mortal sin and outside Christ’s Church. Who knows if through an extraordinary act of grace from God, through an act of contrition, that man might die as a member of the Catholic Church. In reality, it must be highly improbable if ever possible, especially in this day and age for the likes of you and I. And, objectively speaking, for anyone to say that the Protestant sects or any religion other than the Catholic Church can be a means to salvation, that is a heresy. Here is a small sample of what the Popes and Councils have taught concerning this: “On the one hand, therefore, it is necessary that the mission of teaching whatever Christ had taught should remain perpetual and immutable, and on the other that the duty of accepting and professing all their doctrine should likewise be perpetual and immutable.

‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, when in His Gospel He testifies that those who not are with Him are His enemies, does not designate any special form of heresy, but declares that all heretics who are not with Him and do not gather with Him, scatter His flock and are His adversaries: He that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth’ (St. Cyprian, Ep. lxix., ad Magnum, n. I).

• . . . The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium.
  . . . Wherefore, as appears from what has been said, Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium, which by His own power He strengthened, by the Spirit of truth He taught, and by miracles confirmed. He willed and ordered, under the gravest penalties, that its teachings should be received as if they were His own. As often, therefore, as it is declared on the authority of this teaching that this or that is contained in the deposit of divine revelation, it must be believed by everyone as true. ... But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith.”(Leo XIII, Satis Cogitum, 8 ff.)
  

• “And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching.” (Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 7)
  

• “This Council firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Ferrara-Florence, Session XI)
  

We could, if we wished, quote many, many more Popes and they all say the same thing, indeed until Vatican II one could not find any Pope or Council saying differently. So, it is clear that this one part of this one document is heretical. Therefore the whole document is heretical. Therefore the whole Council is heretical. As noted before, just one heresy would be enough to condemn the whole thing, but it doesn’t end there...


Unitatis Redintigratio 6
This document is supposedly about ‘Ecumenism’, and in this paragraph it suggests the following as a means to achieving ‘Christian unity’: “Christ summons the Church to continual reformation as she sojourns here on earth. The Church is always in need of this, in so far as she is an institution of men here on earth. Thus if, in various times and circumstances, there have been deficiencies in moral conduct or in church discipline, or even in the way that church teaching has been formulated - to be carefully distinguished from the deposit of faith itself - these can and should be set right at the opportune moment.”

Fr. Hesse: The morals of the clergy have often needed reforming throughout the history of the Church. But the idea of “reforming” Church teaching (or its ‘formulation’) is something entirely different. And the distinction introduced here between “Church teaching” and “the deposit of the Faith itself” is completely false. Here is what a recent Pope taught regarding this bogus distinction:

“12. How so great a variety of opinions can clear the way for the unity of the Church, We know not. That unity can arise only from one teaching authority, one law of belief, and one faith of Christians. But We do know that from such a state of affairs it is but an easy step to the neglect of religion or “Indifferentism,” and to the error of the modernists, who hold that dogmatic truth is not absolute but relative, that is, that it changes according to the varying necessities of time and place and the varying tendencies of the mind; that it is not contained in an immutable tradition, but can be altered to suit the needs of human life.

13. Furthermore, it is never lawful to employ in connection with articles of faith the distinction invented by some between “fundamental” and “non-fundamental” articles, the former to be accepted by all, the latter being left to the free acceptance of the faithful. The supernatural virtue of faith has as its formal motive the authority of God revealing, and this allows of no such distinction.” (Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, 1928)

Dignitatis Humanae 2
This is perhaps the best known error of Vatican II, perhaps because its consequences are so visible, or because is an error which so many Popes fought against right up to the Council. Here’s what the document actually says: “This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

Fr. Hesse: The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.” The supposed reason or grounds for this error, human dignity, is also itself wrong. As Pope St. Pius X said “The only dignity of man is in his being a Catholic.”

If I really thought that I had religious liberty, I would find an easier religion to belong to. Why not be an Anglican? They have nicer churches, they are more musical, their laws are not as strict... But I am not an Anglican, I am a Catholic because I do not have ‘religious liberty’, I have no choice: I am bound in conscience to be a Catholic if I want to save my soul. G.K. Chesterton said “If I were not a Catholic, I would have a harem.”

“Religious freedom” or “religious liberty” has been condemned by Popes Gregory XVI, Pius IX, St. Pius X, Pius XI and Pius X. You are not free to choose your religion. You are bound in conscience to become a Catholic and to join the Catholic Church in order to save your soul. If you choose not to, you go to hell. Nobody can coerce someone into thinking something they do not want to think or believing something they do not want to believe. But the laws of a Catholic state can prevent the followers of a false religion from practising in public, from trying to make converts, from trying to spread their false doctrine and false morals, etc. Look at the catastrophic numbers of millions of souls today leaving the Church to join ‘evangelical’ protestant sects in countries where before the council everyone was Catholic: South America, the Philippines, etc. These formerly Catholic countries were forced to change their constitutions so as to no longer give the Catholic religion pride of place. All this disaster as a result of just two paragraphs in one of the sixteen documents of this robber council. As noted above, just one error is enough. One heresy makes the whole document heretical, and one heretical document makes the whole council heretical.