10-17-2023, 08:58 AM
It is hard to imagine any SSPX priest or bishop giving credence to the 'apostolate' of Archbishop Thuc, particularly after the 1960's. He gave great scandal in his dubious 'consecrations' to some men who were not even Catholic. Archbishop Lefebvre warned against trusting the Thuc line, as did the traditional SSPX. And yet, we see this scandalous prelate being promoted by Bishop Williamson as a kind of savior.
His Excellency chooses to quote from an anonymous nun who sees visions, who claims Our Lord praises Archbishop Thuc (and of course, Bishop Williamson).
None of what follows is dogma of the Church, nor official nor infallible, it is merely opinion of the author of these “Comments”, speculating on the nature of the Catholic Church and its present distress. Two weeks ago these “Comments” (845, Sept. 23) quoted a message supposedly from Heaven, in which an unknown Sister in France re-assured a Traditional priest that he was still serving Our Lord, even if he was apparently disobeying Church Authority above him in order to do so. Before commenting on the message it may be necessary to quote it again, as it appeared two weeks ago, but with some numbers for reference.
1. The message starts out from the Church’s present “deep and hurtful crisis”, to deny which is to grasp nothing of Church events today. The message shows real sympathy for a priest suffering in the crisis.
2. Some readers may be scandalised by the message beginning with mention of Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc (1897-1984), because his long career in service of the Church did not finish in glory. In principle he understood the gravity of the Church crisis in the 1960’s and the need for emergency measures, but in practice he finished by consecrating bishops and ordaining priests with a wild abandon. However, in this context the message is using his case to show that the principles of the crisis go way back to the 1960’s.
That Mgr Thuc exaggerated in practice is not strictly relevant to the underlying principles still in play today. The message goes on to recognise both the normal need of a priest for structural incorporation in a diocese or Congregation (Authority), and the good will of priests doing their best to serve God (Truth). The message is throughout balancing Truth and Authority.
3. Similarly with the movement in the Church going today by the name of “Resistance”, or “Fidelity”. On the one hand that movement has relied on abnormal or emergency measures for its bishops and new priests, as did Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988 (“Truth”). On the other hand these bishops and priests have no normal incorporation, or “incardination”, in the official structure of the Church – “Authority”.
4. However – and here is the “punchline” of the entire message – as long as such bishops and priests are working faithfully for Our Lord, then lack of incardination is not so important, because “the present situation in the Church is so bad”. In other words, Faith before structure, Truth before Authority.
5. And here is the basic principle of common sense which solves the above priest’s original problem. Church Authority only exists to serve Church Truth and therewith the salvation of souls. And as soon as Truth recovers its rightful top place in the Church, as it will do, then Authority will likewise recover its secondary place, and everything truly rightful will recover its temporarily lost official rightfulness.
Deo Gratias!
Kyrie eleison.
Till then, sit still, my soul. Foul deeds will rise,
Though all the world o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.
- Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 2, end.
One hardly knows where to begin there are so many issues in this one EC. And as with many of the Eleison Comments, there is error mixed with truth, so that souls default to believing these words and swallowing them whole rather than parsing them out.
Just a few of the many serious concerns raised after reading the above EC:
For example, here is an excerpt from The Angelus, 1982, A Journey with the Archbishop [Lefebvre]:
It would appear that Bishop Williamson has forgotten how vehemently Archbishop Lefebvre used to condemn the same prelate he is now promoting vis-à-vis the visions of this anonymous nun.
After insisting on New Mass [fake] miracles, promoting attendance at the New Mass, at Feeneyite chapels, etc. and even making allowances for the Anglicans, this appears to be yet another promotion of falsity by Bishop Williamson. Where is the concern for souls? Where is the attempt to truly lead them, as Archbishop Lefebvre did in the one brief admonition above?
His Excellency chooses to quote from an anonymous nun who sees visions, who claims Our Lord praises Archbishop Thuc (and of course, Bishop Williamson).
ELEISON COMMENTS DCCCXLVII
HEAVEN’S MESSAGE – II
7 October, 2023
[Taken from here - slightly adapted, emphasis mine].]
HEAVEN’S MESSAGE – II
7 October, 2023
[Taken from here - slightly adapted, emphasis mine].]
None of what follows is dogma of the Church, nor official nor infallible, it is merely opinion of the author of these “Comments”, speculating on the nature of the Catholic Church and its present distress. Two weeks ago these “Comments” (845, Sept. 23) quoted a message supposedly from Heaven, in which an unknown Sister in France re-assured a Traditional priest that he was still serving Our Lord, even if he was apparently disobeying Church Authority above him in order to do so. Before commenting on the message it may be necessary to quote it again, as it appeared two weeks ago, but with some numbers for reference.
Quote:1. “The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is presently passing through a deep and hurtful crisis in its representatives, and you, Father, are one of its victims.
2. Mgr. Thuc understood the breakdown inside the Church, and as bishop he took a personal stand which was not according to the rules, because he ordained priests and bishops without incardination, thus putting them all in an irregular situation, even if they are fervent and wish to exercise a ministry in accordance with the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Mgr Williamson, having been put in a similar situation by his dismissal from the Society of St Pius X by its Superior at that time without valid reason, should be able to understand your situation because he too has consecrated bishops and ordained priests. Like yourself, for now, these too are lacking incardination.
4. The present situation within the Holy Catholic Church is so bad that the Lord is happy with all His ministers working faithfully for Him, with or without incardination.
5. This is the Lord’s answer to your question. As soon as Holy Church has recovered within itself the strength of the Truth, priests still seemingly adrift will be able to rejoin it officially, while unofficially never having left it. The Lord blesses you, be at peace, and be faithful.”
1. The message starts out from the Church’s present “deep and hurtful crisis”, to deny which is to grasp nothing of Church events today. The message shows real sympathy for a priest suffering in the crisis.
2. Some readers may be scandalised by the message beginning with mention of Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc (1897-1984), because his long career in service of the Church did not finish in glory. In principle he understood the gravity of the Church crisis in the 1960’s and the need for emergency measures, but in practice he finished by consecrating bishops and ordaining priests with a wild abandon. However, in this context the message is using his case to show that the principles of the crisis go way back to the 1960’s.
That Mgr Thuc exaggerated in practice is not strictly relevant to the underlying principles still in play today. The message goes on to recognise both the normal need of a priest for structural incorporation in a diocese or Congregation (Authority), and the good will of priests doing their best to serve God (Truth). The message is throughout balancing Truth and Authority.
3. Similarly with the movement in the Church going today by the name of “Resistance”, or “Fidelity”. On the one hand that movement has relied on abnormal or emergency measures for its bishops and new priests, as did Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988 (“Truth”). On the other hand these bishops and priests have no normal incorporation, or “incardination”, in the official structure of the Church – “Authority”.
4. However – and here is the “punchline” of the entire message – as long as such bishops and priests are working faithfully for Our Lord, then lack of incardination is not so important, because “the present situation in the Church is so bad”. In other words, Faith before structure, Truth before Authority.
5. And here is the basic principle of common sense which solves the above priest’s original problem. Church Authority only exists to serve Church Truth and therewith the salvation of souls. And as soon as Truth recovers its rightful top place in the Church, as it will do, then Authority will likewise recover its secondary place, and everything truly rightful will recover its temporarily lost official rightfulness.
Deo Gratias!
Kyrie eleison.
Till then, sit still, my soul. Foul deeds will rise,
Though all the world o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.
- Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 2, end.
✠ ✠ ✠
One hardly knows where to begin there are so many issues in this one EC. And as with many of the Eleison Comments, there is error mixed with truth, so that souls default to believing these words and swallowing them whole rather than parsing them out.
Just a few of the many serious concerns raised after reading the above EC:
- Bishop Williamson cites as an authority the 'visions' of an anonymous nun in France. He give no context to these visions, no dates, etc. We are given no idea whether this is a traditional nun or Novus Ordo, etc. She is merely put forward as an authority, as one whose words deserve mention. We are asked to trust her based solely on her promotion by Bishop Williamson. This is not at all the habit of the Church, to accept visions without a thorough investigation and without the facts and circumstances surrounding those visions being well known.
- Archbishop Thuc has performed many doubtful ordinations and consecrations over the years, the most infamous being the Palmar de Troya connection in Spain, who have elected their own pope decades ago. To promote him and his scandalous consecrations as being praised by Heaven, is unforgiveable from Bishop Williamson. To lie and say the Thuc consecrations were 'exaggerated' is inexplicable. To say that his career in the Church 'did not end in glory' but still imply he is somehow someone to be admired is unfathomable.
For example, here is an excerpt from The Angelus, 1982, A Journey with the Archbishop [Lefebvre]:
Quote:“...The Archbishop also was adamant in his complete and total condemnation of the recent consecrations of so-called "bishops" by the Vietnamese bishop, Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc. The Archbishop's condemnation included the supposed ordination of an American priest by those "consecrated" by the Vietnamese bishop. His Grace urged all Catholics to totally reject these individuals and to have nothing whatever to do with them. He looks at the act as being an act of schism which, if carried to its logical conclusion, will lead to heresy. This is based on the fact that several of the "bishops" and a number of the priests with whom they have met have openly declared that their intention is to select a "pope" from among their group. The Archbishop predicted that these individuals would attempt to lure unsuspecting traditionalists into their schismatic schemes. He also said that eventually the movement will be a discredit to traditional Catholicism and would be used by the enemies of the Church as a means of trying to discredit traditional Catholicism. To emphasize his condemnation of these individuals, Archbishop Lefebvre specified that none of the chapels of the Society are to be made available to either these individuals or to those who support them...”
It would appear that Bishop Williamson has forgotten how vehemently Archbishop Lefebvre used to condemn the same prelate he is now promoting vis-à-vis the visions of this anonymous nun.
After insisting on New Mass [fake] miracles, promoting attendance at the New Mass, at Feeneyite chapels, etc. and even making allowances for the Anglicans, this appears to be yet another promotion of falsity by Bishop Williamson. Where is the concern for souls? Where is the attempt to truly lead them, as Archbishop Lefebvre did in the one brief admonition above?
"So let us be confident, let us not be unprepared, let us not be outflanked, let us be wise, vigilant, fighting against those who are trying to tear the faith out of our souls and morality out of our hearts, so that we may remain Catholics, remain united to the Blessed Virgin Mary, remain united to the Roman Catholic Church, remain faithful children of the Church."- Abp. Lefebvre